Bugtraq is a list whose mission is to discuss and provide specific information and full disclosure about security weaknesses. Not neccesarily solutions, but they're damned nice to have and most people want the good with the bad. - You both know this. It is not a favored forum to randomly flame critical comparisons of diffrent products. alt.flame, or alt.flame.satan.spaz.spaz.spaz is for doing that. It is not a place to advertise commecial services or products. comp.security.announce is for that. It is not firewalls either. I got off firewalls because there was so much more noise than substance that it became a waste of time to sort through. I really don't want to see cross-pollination, especially when it's the sort of flaming that got me off firewalls in the first place. On there, people flamed for getting full disclosure information in crossposts. This is a flame from the other side of the fence for NOT getting full disclosure information. - Don't crosspost. I am SURE that both Chris and you know not to do this. Poor form. I'm like alot of other people, I have more than enough sitting in my mailbox to deal with as it is. I do NOT need, nor really want off-purpose or otherwise witless mail. It makes all that much harder to sort through, and increases the risk I may miss something that I would rather not. Considering the topic is systems security related, and that I have a professional intrest in reducing risks related to security, I would like to see that risk minimized as much as possible. Tim Scanlon ________________________________________________________________ tfs@vampire.science.gmu.edu (NeXTmail, MIME) Tim Scanlon George Mason University (PGP key avail.) Public Affairs I speak for myself, but often claim demonic posession